Mark,
Thank you for your kind words below, regarding my suggestions, this past
January, to use Dr. Neil Clark Warren's book as a training resource for the
singles connect group over which you had supervision. I am writing to bring you
up to date on two matters. A few months ago (I rightly forget), I purchased 3
copies of this book on my own dime, and kept one copy, giving the other 2 copies
to teachers in that connect group, so that it would be convenient (and co$t
free) for them to see whether Dr. Warren's book would useful for Living Today:
Singles. As yet, I have not heard anything from them either.
Even though you and I (and even some of my friends) thought my ideas for
training in this area would be a good idea as a preventative approach to help
singles chose the right mate with this Bible-based resource (using “prevention
as the best medicine”), nonetheless, after Pastor Terryl Delaney, who took over
your old Discipleship position after you moved to Evangelism/Missions, was kind
enough this Sunday to take some of his time after church to discuss this with
me, he has reported to me that he does not feel led to look into this at all,
but rather take a 'hands off' approach and let each class decide what materials
are best for it.
While I think this would have been a good, interesting study material for
the class, Pastor Terryl is in charge, and I respect his decision here.
Additionally, Pastor Walt Dearie said to email you about another matter, as
it was something that needed to be brought to your attention. See below our
original communications regarding the 2nd situation.
Gordon,
As always, you have researched this topic thoroughly and provided
some great insight. I agree that a preventative approach to any
situation is best. As we continue to spend time on building a strong
singles ministry, I will keep this information in mind. Maybe we have an "art
of marriage" type conference for singles at some point to help them prepare
themselves prior to meeting their mate.
With that being said, the Art of Marriage conference put on by
Family Life (feel free to visit their website) is a conference that deals
specifically with the lack of communication or issues in communication
betweeen husband and wife. I think you will agree that marriages (even
Christian marriages) are really being attacked by the enemy. With our
busy lifestyles, lack of spiritual disciplines, somewhat selfish attitudes,
and survival mentality, it is no wonder why so many marriages end up in
divorce. I think the statistic now is 1 out of 3.
This conference is built around over 1/3 of the time being
invested in husband and wife working through specific topics together in
workshop format. While I am sure the information would be useful for a
single, I can assure you that the format of this specific video driven
conference is not the right vehicle for us to train and provide this
preventative strike that you bring up. I will look at the resources that
you have provided and will also be looking at other resources. Over the
next few months, I am sure I will have this conversation with leadership of
the Singles group. We do need training. Thanks for your concern,
interest, and valuable information.
From: Gww1210@aol.com
[mailto:Gww1210@aol.com]
Sent: Mon 1/31/2011 4:50 AM
To:
Mark Bedwell
Cc: Kim Bedwell; Steve Davis
Subject: Pastor
mark, here is the email you asked for: NEW MINISTRY
OPPORTUNITY
Pastor Mark, thank you for taking a few moments to speak with me right
after the 8:00 am service yesterday.
Here is that email you asked for. (NEW MINISTRY OPPORTUNITY)
Right before the 8 O'clock service, I saw Kim's table about the marriage
seminar, and thought it was an important topic (actually, second only to
salvation!). I found out, however, that these classes only ministered to the
married (or engaged), and by then it might be too late to change a person's
mind if they made "less-than-wise" decisions. (I'm old school -I believe in
prevention as the best medicine -instead of that expensive pound of
cure!)
So, I felt convicted in my conscience to ask if this could be expanded to
minister to singles thinking about marriage too, and when I asked Pastor
Steven, he said to share my idea with you, but you were pressed for time and
asked me to email you details.
Anyhow, here's the current situation: Your seminar meets an important
need for "cure" and healing of relationships -already in existence, but I
remembered the book by Dr. Niel Clark Warren (founder of Christian dating
service e-Harmony.com). In his book, Dr. Warren points out that, although
marrying a Christian is Biblical, just because 1 person wants
to marry a Christian, that does NOT mean that this couple is the "most
compatible," so if you expanded your seminar ministry to singles, two
things could be accomplished:
* Minister to a *larger* audience than just the married &
enganged (the fields are White to Harvest - Many people are in need
here!)
* Catch them earlier - better chance to avert disaster!
In his book, (Warren, N.C., Finding the Love of Your Life: Ten
Principles for Choosing the Right Marriage Partner, Pocket Books, pp. 48-49,
ISBN 0-671-89201-0), Dr. Warren lists several principles for
choosing a mate:
*** One must not be too young,
*** One must not be too impatient
*** You must NOT marry someone with a behavioral problem
*** You *should* marry someone *very* similar to yourself
*** You *must* learn to be intimate
*** You must learn to resolve differences
*** You should be comfortable with your decision --and wait for a deeper
love
*** Consider advice from friends, relatives, and so on.
*** I think he even mentions finances as it affects marriage &
relationships ((money problems are chief causes of divorce! This list I am
citing IS NOT comprehensive for his book.))
However, in my personal opinion, the most important factor in choosing a
mate is given by Dr. Warren on p.62 of his book: "Principle #3: Make sure the
person you marry is very similar to you."
Dr. Warren lists as important or "absolutely essential" the following
similarities (pp.53-54): Intelligence (not Education); Values; Intimacy;
Interests; and, Expectations about roles. (It is noteworthy to note that he
didn't list ethnic background or race as essential to compatibility. Marriages
are usually within the same ethni-racial and religious background, but I and
other researchers are not prejudiced nor inflexible.) Some "Differences that
spell trouble" include: Energy level; personal habits; use of money; and,
"verbal skills and interests." (There is "interests" again!) He also cites
flexibility as a quality or trait that can compensate for a multitude of
differences.
Since I don't just believe everything that I
am told, I went to the Scriptures to verify his tall tales about
"things in common" vs "opposites attract," and here is what I
found:
Amos 3:3 says: "Can two walk together, except they be agreed?" This is a
rhetorical (obvious) question: the answer is a resounding "No."
--> From the New Testament, I just now realized: IT AGREES:
1st
John 3:2 "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what
we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like
him; for we shall see him as he is."
This is significant, since we are the 'bride of Christ,' and the bride
and groom are SIMILAR: Look at that again: We shall BE LIKE Him [Jesus].
This accords with 2nd Corinthians 6:14, which says: "Be ye not unequally
yoked together with unbelievers:..."
Yes, the 'significant other' has to be saved ALSO (read: Spiritually
'SIMILAR'), but it is much more that -THAT is why Dr. Warren and I do our
respective research!
Dr. Warrant is both a Spirit-filled Christian -AND VERY SMART: He was
dean of Fuller Theological Seminary's Graduate School of Psychology, author of
books, one of which is available from Focus on the Family Publishing, and a
featured guest on radio and TV, including Geraldo and The Oprah Winfrey
Show. Besides his research and mine, other research supports
this interpretation of scripture: "J. Phillippe Rushton, a
professor at the University of Western Ontario in Canada, summarizes a
considerable body of research: Several studies have shown that not only the
occurrence of relationships but also their degree of happiness and stability
can be predicted by matching of personal attributes. Finally, after a careful
review of the literature, researchers White and Hatcher conclude: Clinical
studies available indicate that similarity is associated with marital success
and is less associated with marital instability and divorce. Evidence suggests
that dissimilarity per se is associated with instability and divorce." (Ibid.,
p. 49)
TAKE HOME MESSAGE: Just because 2 people are Christians, that does not
mean they're either mature enough -or compatible in the 1st place: Opposites
don't attract. (Or, if they do, it is not a stable relationship.)
I trust that you will agree that singles need ministry in marriage just
like married & engaged couples, and whatever you do on this issue, I wish
you the best, but I feel that you will run into resistance on at least 2
fronts of you attempt to minister in this area:
1) Time / resource constraints (cares of this life, weeds, other
ministries 'crowding out' the time/resources here).
2) Fallen angels (demons) opposing any ministry here -since they like
people getting impatient & marrying someone less than God's
ideal.
Dr. Jay Dennis' PORN FREE series (and the 'Just Lust' series by Ed Young
in WINMAN) both help people avoid the "wrong," but that is not enough:
The person must "choose the right" person God has for them - That is why I
think Dr. Warren's research, as supported by scripture, meets an area of need
in the body of Christ. I will try my dead-level best to remember you in prayer
here, Pastor Mark.
PS: I'm sorry I was sooo slow in replying here; I just now got up -after
sleeping a fortnight -since I missed sleeping before church Sunday.
Gordon Wayne
Watts
Part II:
You remember when I spoke to you, right
after the beginning of the 11:00 am service on Sunday, September 25, 2011, about
a problem I was having with one of the connect group leaders,
right?
As you recall, I went to my class at 11
O'clock for Living Today: Singles, but when I arrived at class, and asked Bruce
Taylor about whether name-tags had arrived, he informed me that I wasn't in the
class – that I'd been kicked out. I asked Bruce what was going on, but he said
he didn't know (and I later spoke with Pastor Delaney, who took over supervision
of connect groups, but Pastor Delaney said he didn't know either). I asked Bruce
how I had caused any disturbance when I had only arrived, but he only said that
Sunday School teacher(s) had talked about this behind my back, several weeks
ago. I reminded him that I was in class 2 weeks prior, and had there been any
problems with me, they should have spoken to me then, but Bruce told me again he
had no idea what was up, except that someone had spoken with Pastor Steven Davis
about this and gotten his 'ok' on it.
I was taken aback, as I had no idea
what I'd done to have merited that. As I had an appointment with Dr. James
Adams, another member of Living Today: Singles, to take myself and several
others out to eat (or cook us some food), I had to call Dr. Adams up and break
the appointment, and he wanted to know what was up. I told him what little I
knew of what happened.
Dr. Adams is a long-time member of that
class, and would certainly know if I were causing trouble or something, and he's
someone whom I trust as an accountability monitor, so I asked him what he might
think about that. Dr. Adams told me that he didn't think that I had caused any
trouble whatsoever to merit being kicked out, but that probably some of the
questions I asked about the Sunday School lessons were difficult and over the
level of the teachers to answer. I believe that his explanation is probably the
most likely actual cause, and no one else has suggested anything even as close
to making sense, and I will add that since I aced all my seminary course I'd
taken at Evangelical U (our sister church in Plant City), perhaps I did ask
tough questions. Therefore, I'm guessing that since the current class teachers
probably didn't have the training I did, their placement as Sunday School
teachers without proper training would be like asking me to be a doctor or
lawyer without the training: They were well-meaning, not dumb at all (and work
hard at a tedious job), but got in over their heads.
I've
talked with Dr. Adams, and let him know that I'm planning on mentioning him as a
witness for these things, and he gave me his blessings to mention him. Also,
since I don't talk rumours behind anyone's back, I'm including James a copy of
my email to make sure I charactarised him correctly: If you want to verify my
claims, his contact information is as follows: James42Lion@hotmail.com 863-837-0626 (limited minuted cell), and 863-969-6784
(home).
Additionally, last year, when the same thing happened, and I got
kicked out without cause, a few weeks later, I saw Ann Mitchell in the lobby
(she's also given her blessings to be mentioned as a first-hand witness), and
she asked me why I had not been to class; I told her the truth, and she
responded that she enjoyed my participation in class, and gave me impression
that Dr. Adams analysis (with which I concur) was correct. (When I was asking
her permission just now to mention that she witnessed these issues first-hand, I
asked if she thought that I'd caused any trouble in the singles class since the
last time we talked, and she said that she thought I had not done anything to
merit being booted, and that it should be OK to ask tough questions. Ann is a
long-time member of that class, and her contact information is as follows if you
wish to verify if I've charactarised her position correctly: AnnieArtistQueen44@yahoo.com
and (863) 646-0405 (home, as listed in the phone
book).
Furthermore, I've spoken with my friend, Randy Ferreira, who is
the director of the Wingman Men's ministry, and gotten his blessings to list him
as a first-hand witness to something that occurred in WingMan that is related to
this (below in the 'many miracles' section), but Randy does not know I'm listing
him as a character witness too. However, I know that Randy would not mind me
mentioning him as a witness of my character in his class also: since he trusts
my judgment, our relationship is one of mutual trust. Although I have, in the
past, have been a bit talkative (in class, after class, and a little to quick to
email someone about something that could have waited), Pastor Steven talked with
me about that, I've chilled out and become more slow to speak: Randy (and many
others in Wingman) will be glad to tell you that I don't create any sort of
disturbance in (or out of) class, and you're an occasional visitor, and will
remember the same thing. Randy can be contacted at xman_bluerock@yahoo.com or in Wingman most Wednesday nights.
Lastly, while I'm not including them in
this email (to avoid going overboard on the number of cc recipients), you might
also ask Atty. Mike Workman or Jeff, or Wayne or Dottie etc et al., of the Real
Spirit and Truth class whether I cause any grief or disturbance. You know where
they meet, next to the old NOW Centre at 9:30am, most Sundays.
Even in “non-church” settings, I have
no problems: You recall that I joined Deb's Gym, run by Deb and Jack Callahan,
and Ray Parker (who rent from the church). I've been a fairly regular member
since Tuesday, 12 October 2010, that is, for slightly over a year. Even though
some of my workouts last 3-4 hours, and I'm almost 'living' in the gym some
days, even around this rough & diverse crowd (which sometimes even uses
course language), I seem to fit in and not provoke anyone to say I'm causing a
disturbance.
So, with **numerous** unbiased
witnesses who have known me in class (and out) for ages all saying the same
thing, I don't trust whatever was told to Bruce by biased witnesses probably
wanting to avoid tough class questions. Furthermore, whomever had a complaint
this time spread rumours (even if it was only to church leadership), and, to
make matters worse, did not come to me privately with their complaint, as is
church policy. (Besides being rumours, they were no doubt false rumours, which
is even worse.)
You recall that after I asked you and
Pastor Walt to be my Matthew 18:16 witnesses to address Jim Capps' complaint
that Jim's complaint proved meritless: He said that I was putting out food
stuffs (cream/sugar, salt/pepper, coffee/etc.) without permission. That was the
beginning of the class and I had not said or done anything else, so whatever
other complaints Jim had were old, and should have been addressed whenever they
supposedly happened. While I like Jim, his credibility is damaged here, and, in
light of all the witnesses to the contrary, and his own conflicting stories, his
participation in the new class with which AIM merged is also suspect: I'm not
perfect by any stretch of the means, but it was nonsense last time, and the
weight of the evidence and actual unbiased witnesses (in his class and other
classes) suggests it's nonsense this time too. (You may question why I joined
the class with the same people that caused me grief in the past, but Pastor
Mark, when the Living Today merged with AIM and invited me to join, I had to be
a Christian and give them a 2nd chance: I also figured that with a much larger
class, the nonsense factor would be diluted.)
However, I'm not writing you about the
class – that is merely the background to help you understand what I'm saying
without getting confused. Pastor Walt and I looked for you after service this
Sunday, but you were harder to locate than a Bigfoot! I am writing you because
Pastor Walt asked me to email you my concerns about Pastor Terryl Delaney
breaking a church policy in his handling of this matter, and Pastor Walt asked
me to copy Pastors Terryl and Steve, and I agree with him here, for the reasons
I mentioned above.
You remember last time, when I
diligently sought out you and Pastor Walt & begged you to be my Matthew 18
witnesses for the previous issue with AIM, last year, right? And, you remember
that Pastor Steven wanted to speak with me about this issue some more; however,
what you may not know is that I discussed yours and Pastor Walt's involvement,
as you both applied the Matt. 18 Scripture. While Pastor Steven corrected me on
one aspect of the proper interpretation on that passage, suffice it to say that
both Pastor Steven and I, and Pastor Jerry Goodall, who was also in attendance
part of the time, were in 100%-full agreement that you and Pastor Walt had done
the RIGHT thing by the Scripture, and that Matthew 18:15-17 was appropriate for
use in church on at least some occasion.
So, here is the problem: The new
administrator of connect groups who replaced you, Pastor Terryl Delaney, told me
in no uncertain terms that this interpretation was wholly and 100%-wrong, and
that the 'Matthew 18' method should NEVER be used in church, but rather handled
administratively.! In other words, Pastor Mark, the new guy was basically saying
that we were ALL wrong, and following a Scripturally forbidden method. Really...
This is a strong claim to make, but I can (and will) prove it in four (4)
ways:
#1 – I hope that you know that I don't
lie, and if I place my hand on a Bible, and either swear or attest (whichever is
appropriate), that this ALONE would be proof sufficient. I do attest before God
that this is what happened.
#2 – Pastor Terryl, as argumentative as
he is, has enough integrity that I think he would admit that he said this, and,
as fate would have it, when he later came over to my private conversation with
Pastor Walt (where I was seeking his counsel on this matter), and joined the
conversation, he heard my accusation against him on this head, and he not only
did not deny it, but he tried to justify it by using this very interesting
analogy that is described in the point below.
#3 – Before I went looking for you or
Pastor Walt to seek counsel on Pastor Delaney's violation of our church's policy
here, I tried several times to speak with him privately and discreetly to try
and avoid embarrassing him or wasting the time of other pastors, who are busy,
and also to satisfy Scripture in Matthew 18:15, which says go to your brother
privately and discreetly & try and avoid making waves or conflating matters.
It was in these meetings he made his case for what he thought he was
right:
The first time I asked him about it was
the day I was kicked out of the singles class, and I asked him why he hadn't
applied Matt. 18:16 like you and Pastor Walt. (And, at that time, I asked what
was the purpose of the class teacher(s) talking rumours behind my back, and not
coming to me, as Scripture tells us.) Pastor Terryl's reply was that the
'Matthew 18' method was ONLY used in private, non-church settings such as when
'Brother A' runs into the car of 'Brother B' and can not be resolved privately,
so they go to the church and get other Christians to be witnesses to the
dispute, but, if it's a church dispute, it can ONLY be handled administratively.
I asked him to support this claim with Scripture, and he alluded to Romans
chapter 13, which places authorities in place, but was unable otherwise to
support his claims here. Furthermore, when I asked him what Scripture would be
violated for the class teacher(s) to come to me privately as I understood
Scripture to say, and he could/did not answer me at all on that
point.
#4 – If it is not by now painfully
clear that Pastor Terryl clearly said that he disapproved of yours and Pastor
Walt's method (as approved by Pastors Steven, Jerry, and, I think, Pastor Jay
from the pulpit), then we can turn from words and instead look at deeds: He was
faced with the same exact situation that faced you and Pastor Walt: Dispute of
unknown nature at the beginning of a Sunday School class. However, since he
outright refused to follow church doctrine (and the Bible!) in addressing this,
then I don't think I misunderstood him when he said that your method was TOTALLY
wrong, and should NEVER be used in an “in-church” setting: Pastor Terryl's
actions here speak louder than his words – I understood him correctly the 1st
time. (But I'm copying Pastor Terryl because he might have a change of heart and
clarify why it's OK for him to say your method was wrong and
forbidden.)
Pastor Terryl at some point said that
he had NEVER seen anyone kicked out of a Sunday School class, and this this must
prove that I was causing some trouble, so I figured I should tell him about the
last time which showed that he was not actually correct here:
Remembering that you and Pastor Walt's
inquiry found no substantiation of any misconduct on my part, I reasoned that
this should be explored, and I asked him the purpose of the witnesses in Mt.
18:16, figuring it would be easy to answer, and if he confirmed my suspicion it
was to be a witness, I was going to ask him to listen to their witness. Pastor
Terryl got real defensive, stating that I was “trying to teach him” or “lawyer
him” to win an argument.
My father, who does not always agree
with me, and DID tell me he thought I must have done something to warrant
getting kicked out, is NOT a biased observer, sticking up for his son, but even
my father, Bobby Watts, told me that Past. Delaney SHOULD have tried to answer
my Bible question, and when I asked dad, should the pastor still try to answer
me, even if I'm “trying to lawyer” him or win an argument, and my father say,
yes, even then, if he had nothing to hide, he should NOT be afraid to answer me.
Period. That was a pastor's job, dad said. My father can be reached at 833 N.
Lake Parker Ave. just a block from church, at: 686-3411 or 687-6141 (work) or
688-9880 (home) to verify my claims here.
(Whether I was trying to instruct or
teach Pastor Terryl on what the church's policy is on this point, his refusal to
consider it violated this Scripture: Proverbs 1:5
“A wise man will hear, and
will increase learning...” – Please note that the wise man is **not**
limited to hearing other esteemed leaders, or, even for that matter, the truth:
Even had I been lying to him, he would have increased learning by hearing my
lies, even if it was only to learn that I was a liar, so, yes, Pastor Terryl
apparently had pride to bump him away from following this Scripture here.) That
day, however, when I was about to tell him, directly, that I thought he was
violating church policy, his defensive nature and direct violation of Prov. 1:5
and Prov. 8:33, and Prov. 9:8-9; and even Prov. 18:13 here blurred my thoughts,
and it felt like a demonic oppression making me forget things – but I will not
make excuses here:
cite: Proverbs 18:13
He that
answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto
him.
cite: Proverbs 9:9 “Give instruction to a wise man, and he will be yet
wiser: teach a just man, and he will increase in learning.” I might remind you
that none of the other elders have reacted this way when I taught them
something. (A good example of humility here was when Pastor Steven questioned me
about my behaviour in his meeting with me, and I told him that you and Walt had
already 'Biblically' looked into in and found nothing amiss, and he admitted
that he did not know the details of that outcome. Pastor Steven was NOT a fool;
he did NOT judge the matter before he'd heard it; and he DID let me 'teach' or
'instruct' him on a matter of relevance (as any of you would have), and did not
let pride get in the way. Also, when I asked Pastor Steven why he didn't apply
Mt. 18:15 in his complaint, he rightly pointed out that there are a few
exceptions, and, without going into the details, suffice it so say that I also
was humble, and I admitted that I might be wrong –and later found a few examples
in Scripture to corroborate & verify Pastor Steven's claim
here.
So, I made the same EXACT mistake as
Pastor Terryl –misinterpretation of Mt. 18:15-17, except that I went in the
opposite direction and to a much smaller degree. But when I was shown to be
wrong, I was humble, not proud. So, besides theology problems, Pastor Terryl has
a pride problem, but I think he will respond to “tough love” like myself, so I
hold out hope.
I felt I should have told him he was
probably violating church policy – and I forgot, due to my human limitations,
and the next time I got a chance to speak with him, I apologised profusely for
this oversight, and he graciously accepted my apology.
Nonetheless, he admitted to both myself
and Pastor Walt that your application of Mt. 18 was wholly forbidden, and then
was not a hypocrite: He practiced what he preached – but, I am not trying to be
hard on Pastor Terryl here:
First off, this Scripture (Matt.
18:15-17) is probably the hardest Scripture in ALL the Bible to apply, and 2nd
to it is probably Matt. 25:31-46 and Isaiah 58:6-7, which stipulate that you
must take the homeless into your own home, not send them to some godless
'homeless' shelter. Secondly, he is new to leadership, and this sort of mistake
is to be expected. Furthermore, you see my various admission of human error
above (I had bad theology; talked a bit too much, emailed a bit too much;
insensitive to others' feelings; etc.), and so I don't want to be too hard on
the new guy. Lastly, in all honesty, when I told him of my interpretation of Mt.
18:15-17, I was not clear early on that I had gotten my interpretation from no
less than four (4) or five (5) senior pastors, all of whom agreed with my take
on it; he thought it was just my idea, and so that coloured his
view.
Now, Pastor Terryl, you've heard me
make my case to the other pastors about you –in all fairness, I owe it to you to
do the same: I shall now make their case to you:
#1 – I hope that you know that I don't
lie, and if I place my hand on a Bible, and either swear or attest (whichever is
appropriate), that this ALONE would be proof sufficient. I do attest before God
that 4 or 5 Seniour Pastors supported my interpretation that Mt. 18:15-17 could
indeed be used in church at times.
#2 – The 4 or 5 Sr. pastors have enough
integrity that they also would admit that they said this, although Pastor Walt,
when discussing it with him recently, said that he does not recall mention of
the passage in question before applying it.
#3 – I can recall the exact
conversations I had with all 4 pastors in question, which clarify what their
positions are on this church policy:
A) → I ran into Pastor Walt out by the
Coffee shop before I found Pastor Mark, as I recall, and they later both met me
at the class, where Walt says he recalls calling me away from the class once
they arrived, and I was clear on my Scriptural request.
B) → I emailed both
Walt and Mark about this matter, as they recall, and both in conversation and in
email, I was clear on this, and neither of them said I was wrong to ask them to
apply this Scripture here.
C) → The most detailed conversation I had on this
subject was with Pastor Steven, whose authority as 2nd only to Dr. Jay Dennis,
grants him ability to decide matters as this, and while Pastor Steven
wholeheartedly approved of Dr. Bedwell's and Walt's actions, he did inform me
that there are some exceptions if a situation is too broad (and I think Ananias
and Sapphira would qualify as an example where Mt. 18:15-17 was NOT applied,
thus verifying Pastor Steven's claim of an exception).
D) → Pastor Jerry
Goodall was there during some of my meeting with Pastor Steven, and he NEVER
intimated that Pastors Mark or Walt were practicing a forbidden art.
E)
→ I vaguely recall Pastor Jay preaching from the pulpit conflict resolution
methods that follow these guidelines, and I think (but do not know) that he was
'in the loop' on this issue, and assented, but on both matters, I am uncertain,
so I count four **or** five, depending.
#4 – Lastly, their actions speak louder
than their words: Both Pastors Mark and Walt practiced this, and all the seniour
pastors permitted this manner of investigating and resolving conflict. And they
are all wrong? Oh, really...?
So, Pastor Terryl, you can see I'm not
mistaken when I say that your actions here violate church policy.
Since you didn't follow proper church
policy (or the Bible) on how to investigate/resolve conflict, it's no surprise
that you got hoodwinked here. ...LOL.
Turning to your one claim that you've
NEVER seen ANYONE get kicked out of a Sunday School class, and that this somehow
'proves' that I **must** have done something to merit this, I respectfully
dissent: Have you not read in Scripture (and even current history) of MANY, MANY
accounts of people getting kicked out of their church group (or worse)? Ananias,
Sapphira, Jeremiah, David, Paul, Peter, JESUS, Stephen (the martyr), Martin
Luther King, Jr., Nelson Mandela, and the list goes on. In EVERY single case I
recalled here (except the first two), the people were wrongly kicked out of
their church group (and in some cases worse too: Kicked out of ALL groups,
thrown into prison, and/or killed!), and if your only basis for 'judging' me
here was that some church group had kicked me out, then I'd say that odds are
that I'd done nothing wrong: Roughly 80-90% of these cases were unjustified
persecution for preaching the Word (probably what Dr. Adams said I did in class:
just waiting my turn to be called on, and proclaiming the Word).
Next however, when I met with you this
past Sunday, Pastor Terryl, you lobbed a very serious accusation at me: You said
I had lied to and was deceptive with you. This is a serious allegation, so I
will address it:
First off, thank you for meeting with
me to discuss connect groups, and go over my suggestion for a book resource for
that class. (Even if I'm not in it, I still think it would help others.)
However, when I told you that I had spoken with four (4) senior pastors on the
subject matter of Mt. 18:15-17, and that they concurred with my claims that it's
OK to use in church, you recall that you asked me their names (and I answered
you), and then you asked me whether I had spoken to them since the last time I
had spoke to you (and I answered you here too, telling you that it was close to
a year ago).
Then, you recall that you said, first,
that I was deceptive, and then that I had lied; I told you that I had NOT lied,
and challenged you to speak with these pastors to verify my claims that they had
indeed supported Dr. Bedwell's interpretation (and application) of scripture
here, and, therefore supported my concurring view as well.
Your response was to tell me that I had
“misled” you to believe that I had just recently spoken to them.
That is incorrect: I did not mislead
you. You simply did not listen to what I said, and that is your mistake, but I
will admit that you could have gotten confused without the time-element, so I
guess I owe you an explanation as to why I didn't mention the “when” past right
off the bat: You remember that one Sunday when you told me that I was too
lengthy in my speech, right? Well, I took that to heart, and made it a point to
use 'Ockham's Razor' and cut out all the unnecessary stuff to 'get to the
point,' and WHEN the pastors talked to me is NOT relevant, since the policy had
not changed since then. Furthermore, your request to be brief was appropriate:
Your attention span, if not forced to be normal, is VERY short, and had I spoken
to you like I would like to have (you know, mentioning when and where up front),
your very short attention span would have allowed you to be distracted, and you
likely would have said something nonsense like: “Oh, it was way back then, so it
doesn't matter.” – I rightly reasoned that, were it important to you to know
'when' or 'who' or 'what exactly,' that you'd ask, and as I had/have nothing to
hide, you recall, I did not hesitate to directly answer you as to when we spoke
and so on. – So, your accusation that I was like Bill Clinton (your example:
“What the definition of 'is' is”) … is totally and wholly, patently false. You
and I both know that I didn't lie to you, and I caution you to not lob this
accusation at others: I'm even tempered and won't get mad at you, but others are
not always so stable. Ironically, your request for me to be brief & to the
point is what paved the way for our misunderstanding, and ironically your
impatience for me to be brief got the opposite result: As you can see this email
is FAR from brief & to the point, so that just goes to show you that when
you put your impatience above God will, things can backfire...
So, if it wasn't me that mislead you,
who (or what) was it? Here are the likely suspects: Sin, Self, and
Satan:
Romans 7:11
For sin, taking occasion
by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Titus 3:3
For we ourselves also were
sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived...
Revelation 20:10
And the devil that
deceived them was cast into the lake of fire...
Hebrews 4:15
For we have not an high
priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in
all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. (In ALL points which include
the temptation to be deceived! -GW)
James 1:14
But every man is tempted,
when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. (Tempted to be deceived by
his OWN lust –lust for pride, in some cases; see above.)
Galatians 6:7
Be not deceived; God
is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also
reap.
You were (theologically) deceived,
which probably led to your being hoodwinked above, and pride was probably a
factor, but I can feel the good in your heart, and you are strong enough, if you
hold onto Christ, to resist the devil and make him flee. If you don't get hold
of this problem, you WILL have interpersonal problems with other people, and
that is a gold prophecy on which you can bank, and on which I stake my
reputation as a prophet. Likewise, unless a MIRACLE occurs (which I don't
foresee), the Living Today: Singles connect group WILL (read: WILL) have
instability, high turnover, interpersonal problems, and difficulty leading the
class to spiritual growth (as well as possibly arguments and strife). It WILL
happen – without a direct Divine Miracle intervention.
Speaking of miracles... I included
Pastor Jay and Kim and Randy in the cc line for more than just administrative or
character reference purposes. Right around the same time as our disagreement
(both immediately before AND immediately after), a slew of miracles clustered,
and I think it was the hand of God, so I will carefully attempt to chronicle all
these miracles, with supporting evidence/witnesses, and then show how I believe
this is related to our disagreement (and not just an 'interesting' set of angel
stories!).
MIRACLE #1 – PASTOR JAY WAS VISITED BY
AN ANGEL, AS TOLD IN A DREAM
A while back, Dr. Jay Dennis, our senior pastor,
was scheduled to come to the Wingman Men's group, and he is a popular speaker.
The night before he came, I had a dream in which I asked him whether he had ever
had any supernatural encounter, vision, or angelic visitation. So, the next day,
when it came time for the audience to raise their hands and ask Pastor Jay a
question, I remembered my dream, and I asked him this same question. Much to
everybody's amazement, Pastor Jay answered in the affirmative! He had, indeed,
been visited by an angel.
Pastor Jay's account, as best I recall
is, was as follows: He was standing on the dais, preaching, and something caught
his attention out of the corner of his eye, and he looked over, expecting it to
be one of the seniour pastors, approaching the podium for some important
announcement. But, when he looked up, it was an angel of God! He then said that
he had never shared this publicly before that time, as he did not know how it
would be received, and did not want to distract from the message of the gospel
with something that was controversial (however true it may be). He also said
that there was one other time, that he had had a supernatural visitation by God,
and that, at a later time, as he felt led, he might share it.
WITNESSES: In attendance that night,
besides myself, were Randy Ferreira (in the cc line), big Don, Danny, and Scott
Farrington, and may others, including (I think), you pastor Mark. You can ask
any or all of these to verify my claims of what Pastor Jay said. As well, when
visiting with Randy and Scott on Main Street a few Sundays back, Randy's wife,
who was NOT in attendance (she's not a WingMAN), nonetheless overheard our
conversation about Pastor Jay's angel account & can verify it happened.
Lastly, you may contact Pastor Jay and ask him to verify my account here: THAT
is why I included him in the cc line (and, while I don't expect him to
participate in my disagreement here with Pastor Terry –as he is recovering from
back surgery, nonetheless, as seniour pastor, he should be kept 'in the loop'
about weighty matters, of which this is one.) There were no witnesses as to my
dream, so you'll just have to take my word here.
Before I move onto Miracle #2, I wonder a few things:
(i)– What
was the other time that you had a supernatural visitation?
(ii)– How did you
know he/she was an angel? (Floating? Transparent? Thought transference as with
my own father?)
(iii)What do you suppose was God's purpose for this (and the
other) angelic visitation?
(iv) Applying the 7 Biblical Tests for miracles,
prophecies, and spirits, can the non-literal elements of my dream be considered
symbolic, and was my dream also from God, or, perhaps was it from the adversary,
trying to stir up trouble? (In the dream, you answered 'no' and the conversation
took place in the hallway, not in the theatre.) http://gordonwaynewatts.com/theology/TestForProphetsAndSpirits.html
mirror: http://gordonwatts.com/theology/TestForProphetsAndSpirits.html
MIRACLE #2 – The timing of which Kim
can verify
Pastor Terryl has been a member at our church for AGES, and so
have I, but I had NEVER met him before that day I got kicked out of the singles
class. However, that morning right before I left for church, I felt my
conscience 'burning' to compel me to follow-up on Dr. Warren's study book on
dating/marriage, which I had all but forgotten about after our last talk almost
a YEAR ago. So, right before my 9:30 class with Mike, I dropped by Pastor
Terryl's office, and asked your wife, Kim, to run a copy for Pastor Terryl, and
ask him what ever came of my idea in the department he had just inherited, but
Pastor Terryl was in service. Well, here's the miracle (or EXCEEDINGLY unlikely
coincidence, you take your pick) → Only about an hour and a half after that
meeting, I went to my 11 O'clock class and got promptly kicked out; you remember
me speaking with you then. Well, what are the odds I'd be forced to meet with
Pastor Terryl TWICE in the span of a few hours, even though I'd NEVER met him
before? Yeah, that's what I thought: Long odds. So, if it wasn't a coincidence,
what was it? My inference was/is that God knew that I'd be dragged through the
mud & NEED to make a 'good first impression' on Past. Terryl, and therefore
the Spirit of God FORCED me to make my move when I did just hours before I'd
need said boost. WITNESSES: You can ask Pastor Terryl or Kim whether or not I
dropped by and asked Kim to make a copy (I kept the original & gave it to
Past. Terryl on our later meeting that morning). I did not find out I was kicked
out at 9:30, else I would have hit the roof, so the miracle timing is verified
–if you don't believe me, you can ask Bruce Taylor when I was notified =
Miracle.
MIRACLE #3: An omen for things to come,
God's guidance/confirmation
The week before I learned that I was kicked out,
I was in Plant City, checking my mother's mail, and, for some unknown reason, I
felt led to drop by Deliverance Tabernacle on 808 W. Grant St. (between
Alexander and Collins streets), which I had only visited once before to my
memory (as we don't have evening services). While there, I talked with the late
pastor's son about a vision that he had told me about regarding Jesus telling
him to GET OUT of a church, and how every time Jesus wagged his finger, Pastor
Logue's head shook. Well, only one week later, I found out that I myself was
kicked out of a church group probably about the size of Rev. Logue's church, an
I inferred that to be too unlikely to be a coincidence, and I further inferred
God telling me that I should not ask to be back in the Living Today: Singles,
but to get out and stay out. The next week, when I was kicked out, I went back
to the church, and told them what happened in my singles class, and how freaky
unlikely it was that we had been discussing this exact topic the week before; I
also asked them to remember me in prayer. You may come to their evening services
& speak with the late pastor's son, daughter, or current pastor to verify my
story here.
MIRACLE #4 – The miracle involving
Pastor Steven
When I was first new to the church years ago, I took the 4
membership classes, one of which Past. Steven Davis taught. In that class, the
booklet asked (among other thing) how we had spent our time in order to help
guide us to our place of ministry. I felt led to put down that I'd been 'Slaying
Dragons' or word to that effect. I don't know why I put that down, as I don't
think I EVER used that phrase before OR after that day, but just seconds or
minutes after I'd put that down, I head pastor Steven say something about
'slaying dragons' from the podium, and as he couldn't have seen my worksheet, I
was freaked out! I did something I have NEVER done before or since, and that was
speaking up “out of turn” and showing those at my table my worksheet to verify
the freaky coincidence (or miracle?) here. I reasoned that if I didn't speak up
them and get witnesses, I'd be unable to prove it happened, and that it may look
like I wrote something AFFTER pastor Steven spoke on that. (While no one got mad
that day, I plan to NOT ever speak up out of turn again, as it is not decently
and in order.)
MY INTERPRETATION: Since the minds of
Christians are controlled by the Holy Spirit, my guess is that He allowed this
coincidence to show me that Pastor Steven is submissive to the Spirit of God and
that he is a person of integrity, which is important in the context of conflict
resolution: We WANT a person in charge with integrity! (Perhaps, the Spirit of
God is pointing to me as someone who can be trusted to have the standing of an
elder, and, if so, I hope to do my best to demonstrate integrity, and address my
assignments from God.) WITNESSES: Pastor Steven will probably remember this, and
I'm sure that someone would have called me on hokey-pokey had I lied to my
neighbours at the table that day.
MIRACLE #5 – I've had dreams and
visions of a certain girl that asked me to marry her, and while I early-on
thought the dreams were just a lot of nonsense, the research by the experts in
the field which show what type of girl would be best for me (in particular: See
Dr. Warren's book, chapter 3 about things in common) CONFIRMS 100% the accuracy
of the girl in the dream. If I could “make” the girl, now knowing what I do, I
could not have been more precice than the accuracy of the dream, yet when I had
the dream, I knew NONE of this research, so it must have come from God.
WITNESSES: While you will only have my word on all this, you can view my
personal blogs about the 'Missing Person' story and see I am sticking to my
story. Two things: First, it must be a miracle, as I could not have figured that
out – the first of this series of dreams came right after I had fasted/prayed
about the 'right girl,' and then got too hungry & broke my fast. Secondly,
since I am looking ONLY for her, and none of the girls in the singles class fit
this description, you can rest assured I'm not going to make a pass at any of
them, which means less trouble for us mere morals!
MIRACLE #6 – I nearly won the largest
court case in recent history: The Terri Schiavo case
Note: I am NOT a lawyer,
nor do I play one on TV (or my website)
I did better than ALL other pro-life
parties – combined:
Sources:
[1] In Re:
GORDON WAYNE WATTS (as next friend of THERESA MARIE ?TERRI? SCHIAVO), No.
SC03-2420 (Fla. Feb.23, 2003), denied 4-3 on rehearing. http://www.floridasupremecourt.org/clerk/dispositions/2005/2/03-2420reh.pdf
[2]
In Re: JEB BUSH, GOVERNOR OF FLORIDA, ET AL. v. MICHAEL SCHIAVO, GUARDIAN:
THERESA SCHIAVO, No. SC04-925 (Fla. Oct.21, 2004), denied 7-0 on rehearing. http://www.floridasupremecourt.org/clerk/dispositions/2004/10/04-925reh.pdf
[3]
Schiavo ex rel. Schindler v. Schiavo ex rel. Schiavo, 403 F.3d 1223, 2005 WL
648897 (11th Cir. Mar.23, 2005), denied 2-1 on appeal. http://www.ca11.uscourts.gov/opinions/ops/200511628.pdf
Note: I had NO help on this at all
–and, as a non-lawyer, I could not have nearly won it (losing eventually in the
state's high court by a razor-thin 4-3 margin) unless Jesus had helped
me.
MIRACLE #7 – Even more miraculous than
#6 above, but related: What would even get INTO me to make me think I had a shot
at winning such an emotionally-charged case? (A normal person would be afraid to
even THINK about going to court, as there is a very REAL possibility that the
loser –which is what I was –would be fined, censured with restricted filing
status, and run out on a rail by the corrupt court system.) – The fact I was
naive enough (think: Forest Gump's child-like faith) to even THINK about this …
miracle. Big-time, major-league Miracle. PROOF: The clear paper-trail proves
that both #6 and #7 happened, and even though 'main-stream' media shoved me (and
other 'small' people) under the rug, it may be Googled as well, to
verify.
MIRACLE #8 – MY FATHER WAS VISITED BY
AN ANGEL
Long ago, I asked my father if he had
ever had any supernatural encounters, and he told me the following:
Once, when he was visiting Georgia with
a friend (to help take turns driving), he was almost asleep, and suddenly, a
'being' or 'spirit' woke him up, and communicated by thought-transference to
listen up, he had a message for my father: The 'being' told dad that his fiancee
was cheating on him, and showed him glimpses of the scenes; however, he wasn't
able to make out or recognise the face of the man in the vision. My father told
his buddy that he NEEDED to go back to Plant City NOW, and while he was
resistant initially, he relented, and took dad back home, stopping to get him a
meal, but buying dad ONLY a pack of peanuts (no drink!). When dad got back home,
he confronted Sally (not her real name), and at first she denied, but under
pressure, she admitted. Also, she wanted to get married for security, as opposed
to love, and they had a cold relationship. But in spite of all this, my father
married her, and shortly thereafter divorced her, before marrying my mother.
THIS VISION IS A MIRACLE. My father can be reached at 833 N. Lake Parker Ave.
just a block from church, at: 686-3411 or 687-6141 (work) or 688-9880 (home) to
verify my claim here.
My purpose for including all eight (8)
miracles, and documenting them best I can?
First, each of these miracles directly
or indirectly involved someone related to my dispute with Pastor Terryl, and I
feel that God is trying to speak to us. He still DOES speak through miracles.
(Will we listen, with our very sinful nation?)
Secondly, besides the proximal issue
(Past. Terryl, etc.), the very fact that not only does God use miracles, but so
does the devil, and it might be a good time to brush up on our theology so as to
NOT get deceived:
By the way, Pastor Steven, besides
chilling out in class (less –or no –questions), and besides chilling out on
sending emails (which was just as talkative; we talked about that, and as you
know, I kept my word), I also kept my end of the bargain with respect to NOT
bringing up controversial or difficult topics in class, but when the teacher
brought it up (I'm thinking about Dr. Greg Daniels, who bravely brought up the
infant salvation topic) and began sharing incorrect theology, it is not wrong
for me to raise my hand and share CORRECT theology. Case in point which might be
why the Sunday School teachers thought I should be kicked out:
Dr. Daniels told the class that infants
who die go to heaven (correct), but he went on to say that this is their ETERNAL
fate. (Incorrect: It violates Jn 14:6, and numerous other scriptures dealing
with faith) – In case no one else knew, Dr. Dennis can verify that we spoke
about that matter at the Thanatos before last (about a year ago), and I asked
him whether I was correct in my belief that man could NOT twist the arm of God
in trying to 'make' God send a baby to heaven by killing it, as some mothers
have been known to do, and he said, yes, I was correct.
OK, does everyone here trust Dr. Jay
Dennis to be correct on the Bible? (I do!) – Assuming he is correct (and he is),
then let's look at the claim that a baby's ETERNAL fate would be heaven if the
mother killed him, but if she let him live then he might have a chance to reject
Christ & go to hell.
Alright, if this were true, then the
mother WOULD be capable of twisting God's arm, but we both know that Pastor Jay
is not a liar, not a lunatic, and not stupid: His theological claim above is
CORRECT, so the ETERNAL fate of the babies is NOT sealed at that point, rather
God will not strip them of their free will. Also, as I pointed out to Dr.
Daniels in class, if going to heaven alone would seal your fate, then what about
the angels in heaven? They were in heaven, and yet one-third of them fell, and
100% of them had free will. So, if God gave the angels free will, and some
rejected God, then why would it be out of God's character to do the same with
babies who die in their infancy? The angels are Scriptural precedent, and, while
I don't say for certain that I know the details of all this, the 1,000-year
Millennium Reign of Jesus has both families raising babies, free will, sin, and
death, so this is as likely as any to fulfil Scripture, and is elucidated at
more length here:
So, I mention this matter since those
who talked behind my back might have spread rumours, and I feel it is
appropriate to defend myself here & address this point.
Lastly, I feel bad that the length of
my email here is great, but considering the weighty matters of these two
things:
--1-- A senior pastor who disregards the rules and refuses to
consider that he might be wrong
and
--2-- A disappointed God shouting,
yelling, in miracle language, when we don't hear Him in His soft
voice...
...considering both of these, and the
fact that we as humans need to draw down on our human nature and draw close to
God, it is not unjustified that the length here is a bit longer than what I'd
have liked. If certain few people had not been so-much like Pharisees, I would
not have had to have written my response here. And, if you think my email was
long to read, think of how long it would take for you to listen too (you can
read faster then I can talk) –and, lastly: If that all was hard, it was even
harder for me to type (and proof-read!) this, so if you think you have it hard,
remember what I went through typing this –not to mention the hard time certain
people gave me for no legitimate reason.
OK, in conclusion, what is my goal?
What do I want from all this? Not revenge or blood. I hope Pastor Terryl is not
offended by my hard rebuke, and I hope my various suggestions are considered,
and that all parties are healthy in body, mind, and spirit. And, if anyone
thinks they have sinned against me, rest assured I will/have forgiven you (Mt.
11:25), and I would hope that if I've offended someone or made a mistake (for we
are all human) that I'd be forgiven.
As an ambassador for The Christ
(2 Cor 5:20), our Saviour (Jn 3:16) and only perfect role model/example (Jn
13:15; 1 Pet 2:21), I am, Sincerely,
Gordon Wayne Watts, editor-in-chief, The
Register
www.GordonWayneWatts.com / www.GordonWatts.com
ALWAYS FAITHFUL - To God
BS, The Florida State
University,Biological & Chemical Sciences
AS, United Electronics
Institute
821 Alicia Road, Lakeland,
FL33801-2113
Home: (863) 688-9880 Work: (863)686-3411 Voice&FAX: (863)
687-6141 Cells: (863) 430-1437 or (863) 513-4315
See also: http://Gordon_Watts.Tripod.com/consumer.html
Gww1210@aol.com ; Gww12102002@Yahoo.com
Truth is the strongest,
most stable force in the Universe
Truth doesn't
change because you disbelieve it
TRUTH doesn't bend to the will
of tyrants
http://GordonWayneWatts.com / http://GordonWatts.com
Get
Truth
"First, they [Nazis] came for the Jews. I was
silent. I was not a Jew. Then they came for the Communists. I was silent. I was
not a Communist. Then they came for the trade unionists. I was silent. I was not
a trade unionist. Then they came for me. There was no one left to speak for
me."(Martin Niemöller, given credit for a quotation in The Harper Religious and
Inspirational Quotation Companion, ed. Margaret Pepper(New York: Harper
&Row, 1989), 429 -as cited on page 44, note 17,of Religious Cleansing in the
American Republic, by Keith A. Fornier,Copyright 1993, by Liberty, Life, and
Family Publications.
Some versions have Mr. Niemöller
saying: "Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn't speak up, because I was
a Protestant"; other versions have him saying that they came for Socialists,
Industrialists, schools, the press,and/or the Church; however, it's certain he
DID say SOMETHING like this. Actually, they may not have come for the Jews
first, as it's more likely they came for the prisoners, mentally handicapped,
&other so-called "inferiors" first -as historians tell us-so they could get
"practiced up"; however, they did come for them -due to the silence of their
neighbors -and due in part to their own silence. So: "Speak up now or
forever hold your peace!"-GWW